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Post by ivor on Jul 7, 2017 14:48:08 GMT
"Worrying always results in sin. We tend to think that a little anxiety and worry are simply an indication of how wise we really are, yet it is actually a much better indication of just how wicked we are. Fretting rises from our determination to have our own way. Our Lord never worried and was never anxious, because His purpose was never to accomplish His own plans but to fulfill God’s plans. Fretting is wickedness for a child of God."
- Oswald Chambers
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 15:44:36 GMT
Not sure I agree totally with the statement Ivor. I do believe that worry and anxiety are rooted in ' the flesh ' , but I am not convinced it is always about wanting our own way in things. Anxieties can be rooted in many things that have happened to us, like Post traumatic stress syndrome. So sometimes the anxieties is about what we do not want. Although you could argue that the root is fear, which is linked to lack of faith. However when I was going through a phase of getting flashbacks I had little control over the triggers or the way I felt when the panic arose from within me. Was that sin , or the results of what someone else did to me, there sin ( consequences ) I am never viewed a little bit of worry or anxiety a measure of how wise I am, I always see it as a weakness, a failing......
Rita
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 17:29:52 GMT
You know the more I thought about what Oswald said the more I found myself thinking about all the people who have felt anxious, worried, but took a step of faith, had courage and did what was needed despite of how they felt- surely that means that anxiety does not always lead to sin and is not always wickedness. Rita xx
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Post by ivor on Jul 7, 2017 19:07:07 GMT
Yeah anxiety is not really a choice its our make up and our feelings are what they are..
I'm obviously a fan of this view because I don't generally worry but that's not a religious thing it happens to be my personality trait and its a pain for those who have to live with me or deal with me and me myself I feel that I'm callous in simply observing the world going by - all who know me say that I should never die of a heart attack as nothing gets under my skin. I'll no doubt prove them wrong!
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Post by Dave on Jul 7, 2017 19:41:33 GMT
Phil 4-6 is "be careful for nothing" or "don't entertain worry" personally I think if one entertains worry and anxiety as an ongoing life style, it can become a snare; does this result in sin? anything which is not of faith can cause one to miss the mark in a certain area. That also requires Mr Chambers to give his definition of sin!!!!! I bet he never took a drop of wine either . I would disagree that it's only motivation is purely self orientated or an indication of how wicked we are; when Paul left a city by going over the wall in a basket, he had to have been a little anxious!!!!!! it did not make him wicked but just kept him alive a little longer. Like a man said; " Worry is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do, but gets you no where"
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Post by james on Jul 8, 2017 19:18:56 GMT
I thought the opening post by O.C. was a bit silly, a bit black and white. One man's worry is another man's taking stock of a situation. Paul tells us to take stock to check the inventory to reckon ourselves dead. Not all worry is self centred one can be concerned for the44 welfare of another with no self interest. Like I said seemed silly statement to me.
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Post by Helen on Jul 8, 2017 21:43:27 GMT
PS. BTW, I wrote this three hours ago...then had a phone call from the phone company which took two hours! Then another hour went by before I finally got back here to acually POST this!! I used to read Oswald Chambers every single morning for a number of years. As Rita said..Im not sure we need to come under that much condemnation...I don't see it that black and white Oswald Chambers says. Good topic for discussion Ivor! When Peter looked at the waves and began to sink ( through fear, and for sure WORRY!! LOL) Jesus did not say- " Naughty , naughty sinner Peter you are full of sin.". Jesus "reached out His hand in rescue" I remember Jim Richards preaching on faith and fear .. years ago...using the Greek original meaning etc ...he said , what it means is.." Have more faith than doubt." Gideon was threshing grain at night, because of fear of the Midianites...and what did God think of fearful Gideon? "And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour."
A far cry from the condemnation of sin! Maybe it is true what O.C. said that- "fretting is wickedness for the child of God." But I don't think that is what God thinks.. I don't see that clearly in the word. I think anxiety and 'fretting' is a sign of weakness in the child of God, not sin. We each have weaknesses , which, in God's strength we wrestle against to overcome. We can't be overcomers if we don't have anything to overcome. As long as we are not making excuses for our anger, gossip, fear etc...then we are actively overcoming as we walk.. I remember hearing a message and the preacher was showing how we judge each other. ( Not saying that Oswald Chambers is judging...but..) This guy said:- in one church people came to me saying. 'You need to tell so and so to leave the fellowship , he is still smoking." So this brother said- " Oh really, now tell me , do you have any gossips here? Do you have any back biters here? Do you happen to have any hatred here, anyone who has envy ? " ( Galatians 5 as Rita said..works of the flesh..) "If so...next time I come to this place to preach...if you have found none of the above in your flock..THEN we will speak with the smoker..because gossip and back biting, hatred and he that soweth discord among the brethren , destroys people...a smoker just destroys himself." I thought that was a very wise word in answer to those people. I am sure there was silence in the room when he said that! Paul says re the works of the flesh..." they shall not INHERIT the Kingdom of God." That is why we are told to- " Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice.".. Paul says re the works of the flesh..." they shall not INHERIT the Kingdom of God." In other words...when we give in to the flesh, we are not in line for the full reward. We are producers of 'wood, hay, and stubble'...we 'get in' but by the skin of our teeth, ....we may indeed pardon our own attitude and behaviour, but it will cost us highly. Then, we will taste of the 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'...when we see 'slipping away' something that we thought that we 'had in the bag'! Maybe we can spit hairs and say- "as sin is a transgression of the law...then anger, wrath, malice, back biting ..is a transgression of the Law of Love.." ( love God, Love neighbour".) And it is indeed "missing the mark"....so, who knows, maybe Oswald Chamber is right. If that be so...then the Church of God is full of people that are sinning daily. Anger, jealously , back biting, gossip, malice, along with fear and fretting.
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Post by ivor on Jul 9, 2017 10:36:32 GMT
We all seem to be in agreement and although he is a wonderful teacher this quote taken out of context of the full talk that he gave appears to be wrong. If we were in the audience it would no doubt have made perfect sense with regard to the subject of the discussion
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Post by Dave on Jul 9, 2017 14:33:08 GMT
A good thought Ivor; context is the key to many things, especially scripture. It's a bit like "not" hearing the "whole" conversation but coming to a conclusion based on what one did hear. Marriage being a prime example of where this "might" occur, . Although in Mr C's day, sanctification and holiness was based solely on, my performance, and failure, was to be lost and end up worse than before knowing Jesus!!!!!!!!. But that said, they were men who God used and we will each will be rewarded. We are to "work" out "our" salvation with -----------------.
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Post by Poppy on Jul 9, 2017 18:44:38 GMT
I think there is a difference between being concerned and worrying. I once read that worry was negative meditation where instead of focusing on God we are focused instead on ourselves and so not trusting God to deal with the circumstance we are worrying about.
It is natural to be concerned about our families and our lives but if we have given them to God we needn't worry. Early in my Christian life I was told that worry is a sin for the reason I've given, that it means we aren't trusting God.
If I find myself worrying I always ask God to forgive me and ask him to deal with the problem. I must say though that sometimes I have to do that more than once.
As you are all aware we are told in scripture, 'Do not be anxious.'
Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. Philippians 4:6
And Jesus himself told us not to worry so we shouldn't. So I agree with Chambers
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Post by amadeus on Jul 10, 2017 14:28:27 GMT
A good subject and many very good comments. I see worry similar to the way Poppy sees it in her described difference between it and concern.
It is like being assailed with evil thoughts. The evil thoughts come on most everyone but just because we have them doesn't mean we have sinned. What we do with what we have received and how quickly we do it I believe is what ultimately makes the difference.
If we sit on or dwell on the thoughts, likely it will become sin because the thoughts themselves were in and of the ways of man rather than the Way of God. Jesus was hit hard with wrong thoughts and pressures when he met up with satan. He answered each attack with the Word of God... and He did not delay in doing it.
A mother being concerned about her child who has gone out with friends is a normal reaction and hardly sinful. When she has not heard from the child or others involved for a long period of time, her concern perhaps has grown into worry. This again is NOT an evil thing. It is an expression of love.
There might, however, come a time when the mother simply will not pull her hands back away from the child to let him/her move into the adulthood that needs to occur. Even with an adult offspring proper concern is what a loving mother will [or should] have, but we cannot worry continuously because something bad might happen. Trusting God to handle the child who is already of age to make his/her own decisions is a necessary for a believer, is it not?
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Post by Helen on Jul 10, 2017 14:53:41 GMT
What an excellent post Amadeus...wisely put...and GREAT balance between being concerned, and it turning into sin/lack of trust when we choose to 'make it ours' and not roll it upon the Lord, as we are told. For those of us ( or maybe I am the only one!) ..who have had to fight fears and anxiety since being a very small child. Once saved ...it became a life WORK for me to continually "roll-it". Thick darkness would come upon me ( the spirit of fear)..and Dave would hold me and pray, while I literally shook and vibrated under the think darkness and lies whispered in my ear. I had a horrible vision once...I was standing in between God and the Devil... God showed me that when I yielded to fear by the devil...it was as if I turned and 'open-mouth' kissed the devil!!! Yep I said it was a nasty vision. That is why I contend the OP, because fear is not sin, as I see it!...but a fight that we are in. Thankfully little by little Father saw me through to victory over it...but it was many, many years of fighting the good fight of faith...and 'laying hold...of the victory.' I know that not all , or not many have had to fight this battle...there are different battles...Dave has never had to fight this...he is of the 'happy go lucky' type....
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Post by Dave on Jul 10, 2017 15:53:53 GMT
Just a thought on O,C's statement of Jesus never worrying or was ever anxious. As a man He was tested in all things pertaining to man; the many times that he retreated to pray, scripture does not record what it was about!!!!! but we know He was without sin. He/OC, also raises the question of purpose: Jesus's purpose and ours in the sense that Jesus was not motivated by self, only the will of the Father, so that brings us to, what is our purpose? ? Are we fulfilling the will of God or fulfilling our own and asking the Lord to bless our endeavours? King David is recorded as "a man after God's heart" but he was also a man of many passions and motivations and not always godly; maybe he was in the "happy go lucky" crowd . As I read scripture, that alone gives me enough to worry, fret, and be anxious about, no need for the enemy to come knocking on my door!!!!!!! I bet old Oswald got some good amens, after preaching that as a message.
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Post by amadeus on Jul 10, 2017 22:43:16 GMT
As I read scripture, that alone gives me enough to worry, fret, and be anxious about, no need for the enemy to come knocking on my door!!!!!!! I bet old Oswald got some good amens, after preaching that as a message. Without a doubt with regard to Oswald and the "amens" he received: I am with you on this. I used to read his devotions daily although I haven't read them lately. I also have a biography on him that I read a couple of years ago. His walk with God impressed me favorably as did his devotions. They still do, even if my own take on some points certainly differs. As I remember, although not a soldier, he died in Egypt toward the end of the First World War. Although we might not all agree here today with all that he wrote a hundred years ago, we should give thanks to God for all of the good that that man of God did in his time. This brings to mind what the Apostle Paul wrote: "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise. " II Cor 10:12
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